Tuesday, July 15, 2014

Another Perspective on NAMALT (Not All Men Are Like That)

Howdy men, I am here to tell you today that you're all full of shit.  Yes, even you.  Even the "good" ones, especially the "bad" ones.

If that statement has pissed you off enough to stop reading this post, that's totally alright. There are plenty of spaces on the internet for you to troll and mansplain about how the evil hairy lesbian feminists are ruining your desire to use your penis life.

If you're still reading and you're a man, congratulations! You actually wish to educate yourself on why male power dynamics across all types of various subcultures is imbalanced and a huge problem, and you're going to know that I can see the patterns, as can many other women, and those patterns aren't fooling us.

Subculture #1 - Male Pedophiles:  Recently, my partner watched an awful documentary about pedophilia, in which the director attempts to differentiate between "good" pedophiles and "bad" pedophiles.  She also wrote up an amazing critique of the documentary, which you can read HERE.

A kiddy-fucker is still a kiddy-fucker, no matter how much pomo-jargon men try to use to bamboozle everyone.  But they try to make the distinction between men who ACTUALLY rape children as opposed to men who ONLY THINK about raping children, and those in the latter category are the "good" pedophiles.

Men's hierarchical "good man," "bad man" bullshit land.

But it's not just within pedo circles that men have territorial pissing matches over which of them sucks and which of them only sucks sometimes.  I've also seen this behavior in the following other men's subcultures as well:

#2. Bronies:  "Bronies," for those who aren't in-the-know, are a subculture of grown-ass men who like the television show My Little Pony.  My Little Pony is a story about multiple female ponies who explore such concepts as friendship, bravery, their magical skills, honesty, loyalty, and laughter.  My Little Pony is such an important show for young girls for numerous reasons, one of which is because it is one of few shows that feature a primarily female-led cast.  In fact, boy animals are just background minor characters.  It shows little female ponies going on all kinds of really big adventures.

That all being said, it's hard to understand why men are even interested in this show, let alone making a name as incomprehensibly stupid for themselves as "bronies."  What, is the title of MLP Fan too effeminate for you?

But that's not the best worst part.  Within the brony subculture, there apparently exist "cloppers" who "clop." Clopping is the act of masturbating to fanfiction and/or pornographic fan art of My Little Pony characters.  Bronies insist that Cloppers aren't really Bronies.  Cloppers aren't TRUE fans and they are in fact, giving bronies a bad name.  You can see an example of this here (WARNING: semi-graphic content of stupid and offensive MLP sex toys): http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/do-bronies-fap-to-my-little-pony.452788225/

This user, TheNewCharlie985, offered this explanation:  Well, the way I see it, all cloppers are bronies, but not all bronies are cloppers.

Cloppers are the sexually frustrated hardcore bronies that find the ponies and/or their anthropomorphic counterparts sexually attractive.

You don't group those people in with the "Bronies" because a "brony can be any male over 14 that likes watching the show from time to time.

#3. MRAs:  MRAs, or Men's Rights Activists, claim to care about the concerns of men; concerns which have everything to do with institutionalized patriarchy, but they're too obstinate to admit it.  There isn't much for me to say on this topic honestly, because MRAs are about as redundant as you can safely get before hitting peak insanity (oh, look, a group of men who openly admit they hate women. Shocking!).  But I will say this, MRAs openly denounced shooter Elliot Rodger as one of their own, even though he wrote a manifesto detailing his motives (misogyny and racism), and he frequented MRA and PUA (pick up artist) websites.  So, in the case of MRA logic, there are "bad" MRAs like Elliot Rodger who MRAs consider "not a real MRA" and then there are "good" MRAs, who simply hate women, but don't go on shooting sprees.

Got it.

#4. Male-born trans activists:  Goddess, where do I begin?  I'm going to try to keep this short, because I could be here all day.  But, basically depending on whichever group of male-born trans activists you speak with, the "good" ones are men who simply cross-dress, and the "bad" ones are ones who pretend to be women.  In other groups, the "good" ones might be the "true transsexuals" who are males who think they have a legitimate medical condition which requires them to undergo drugs and surgeries to become surgically constructed models of patriarchal-femininity and the "bad" ones are the ones who don't actually have gender dysphoria, or the "bad" ones are the ones who cross dress.

The whole thing is a big mess.  Either way, there's a lot of finger-pointing going on.

#5. Sports and/or Bodybuilding:  This one is easy.  In sports or bodybuilding, the "bad" guys are the ones who cheat or use steroids.  The "good" guys are the guys who don't do this.  Nobody pays attention that both groups of guys are often misogynistic and homophobic (and no, having gay athletes doesn't really matter).

#6. Leather subculture:  The "bad" Doms are the ones who don't respect boundaries or hurt or rape their victims.  The "good" Doms are the ones who hurt with "consent" from their victims.

#7. Prisons:  Beside the obvious "bottom bitch" and "alpha" dynamics, different types of male criminals get placed on different spots within the male prisoner hierarchy.  Child molesters are typically on the bottom rung and get attacked with such brutality, they often get solitary confinement, for example.  It's not likely you'll hear the "good" male criminal or "bad" male criminal argument, but crimes are treated differently by various inmates.  Certain inmates are more revered, where others are reviled.

#8. Pimps and Johns:  Pimps assert that they aren't like the other pimps because the other pimps beat their prostitutes or get them hooked on drugs.  The "good" pimps are the ones who give their "workers" a better working environment than the other pimps.  The "good" johns are the ones who don't beat up the prostitutes or attempt not to pay.

This is all incredibly stupid, but men actually believe the things they are spouting.

Why did I go through the painstaking task of compiling this list in the first place?  I did it for a few different reasons.  First, I wanted to make sure that people could see the larger picture between these various connections, and that larger picture is that no matter what men are doing, especially if it is questionable, immoral, or downright harmful, they will attempt to plead the case that what they're doing isn't that bad, because there are other men who are worse than they are.  The second reason I am drawing all of these parallels is because men's culture thrives on the creation and maintenance of hierarchies, and fringe groups (or even mainstream institutions like sports) are no exceptions to men's hierarchies.  Finally, I created this list as an educational experience for women to see and understand that the "bad" men, "good" men, and "silent" men (the men who are silent and complacent in harms or wrongdoings) are all participating in this culture of dominance.

Sometimes, the "good" and "bad" groups go head-to-head in fighting online or in person, just to establish who is Top Dog.  In the end, it's pointless, because it's all the same.

I also urge my readers to look over THIS LIST from Wikipedia. Are there other subcultures on this list that have large groups of men claiming the "No True Scotsman" argument?  If so, what have you noticed?  (For example, if you were involved in the anarcho-punk scene, goth culture, straightedge, etc). Talk about your experiences in the comments below!


Anonymous said...

Easy to understand......I agree

Anonymous said...

I know this will be deleted. But people like you cause things like this. This poor child had the right to be a fan of any damn kids program he wanted but just like you, people harassed this poor child into a suicide attempt. You really need to start thinking about not bashing potential gay boys and men, especially. Homophobia from a so-called lesbian is kinda is hypocritical. http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/gay-boy-11-tries-kill-himself-over-my-little-pony-bullying050214

Heath Russell said...

There is a difference between 11 year old boys liking the show, and grown ass men who are "fans" of MLP and who masturbate to characters on the show. The 11 year old boy is still a boy. There is no reason for this group of men to call themselves bronies and to, for instance, capitalize on a show made for young girls (as an episode of Bob's Burgers pointed out).

And don't even start with me about homophobia, k? There is more lesbophobia (and misogyny) in the small toe of Queer and Trans Theory than there is in my entire body.

I'm not one to harass children over which shows they like, but if men were REALLY fans of MLP, they'd be just as publicly outraged about cloppers and would petition for removal of masturbation devices designed for clopper use.

Like, are you purposely trying to miss the point? I think you are.

Heath Russell said...

Oh, and another thing: "so-called lesbian?"

And you want to talk to ME about homophobia? Take a hike!

Anonymous said...

Dear other anonymous commenter, the blogger does state that Little Pony is a girl's show and a male should not have any real interest in it unless he is doing something sexual (which I doubt this poor boy child was masturbating to it).

Just like the religious right and the Men's Rights Activists, the radical feminists are all about homophobic and transphobic attacks against people that do not fit biological sex, gender identity or sexual orientation standards. God forbid a little boy might like pink and dresses (he is just a pervert looking for victims to rape) or a little girl might like blue and pants (she is just a victim of misogyny thinking she is a dude). You noticed the blogger does not say that this little eleven year old boy trying to kill himself was a bad thing in fact she probably had no feelings about it at all (its like war, it just happens no big deal). And that is the problem no compassion, kindness or empathy towards others also. People wonder why so many people try to alter themselves to fit the collar of the gender binary through transition. If these rules were not in place people could be happy masculine women and feminine men without being called freaks and perverts by people like this blogger, There would be less diagnoses of gender dysphoria, less suicides, and hate crimes. Please do not listen to people like this blogger if you are a masculine girl or feminine boy, you have the right to be you. This blogger is doing what is called double talk, she is complaining about people transitioning but she is also sending out a message that you must follow gender rules or you will be placed in with the true horrible perverts (pedophiles, rapists, violent fetishists, bestiality people..), so a boy cannot like girl stuff without being a girl, like this poor kid. That sounds like a support for gender reassignment to me because a young child is going to say I want to be able to like these things, so I must became the gender that it is OK for or I will be seen as something horrible.

On the masturbaters of Little Ponies (bronies or whatever the hell you call yourselves) that is just gross, I have also heard about a few grown assed women doing this too. It is gross get some therapy men and women that do this because Little Ponies is 1. a kids show not an adult human porno movie 2. its animals guys, WTF? and 3. its just wrong and gross, get a life and a real adult human person with consent for a real date. Now I must go vomit.

Heath Russell said...

Thanks for your bumbling, incoherent rant in which you attempt to twist my words into something that they are not. Clearly this article really pissed you off. I'm glad. I like pissing men off. It's a hobby of mine.

Heath Russell said...

If you're not a man and this article pissed you off, then you still don't understand the points I was trying to make, and I feel secondhand embarrassment for you.

Also "feminine boy" and "masculine girl?" That language, right there, is what supports transition. Not the fact that I am calling out grown ass men who have to call themselves "BROnies" in order to enjoy My Little Pony.

Heath Russell said...

Here you go, purposely-misses-the-point-twists-my-words-and-is-generally-ignorant-anon. This article and video are for you.


Especially this quote: She reminds him of his "pony name," and Bob sort of snaps. "Why do I even need a name? Do you have a pony name?" he asks. "No, I'm a girl. Girls who watch the show are just girls," Tina replies. Boom! There you go, in one Tina Belcher line, the idea that articulates what's so frustrating about the modern fascination with Bronies: Why is being a fan of a show notable only when men do it?

Sappho Winchester said...

So why does a little 11 year boy get judged, to the point of suicide for watching a so-called girl's only TV show? Because radical people in all forms (religious, MRAs, feminists...) tell them it is OK to terrorize this child and make him a joke and use homophobic slurs and put him on the "future perverts of America" list. I hope you stop your mission of putting little boys that call themselves Brodies (the kids had this tittle long before the perverts did) that watch this show in with those adults that are completely fucked up mentally and sexually.

A little 11 year old (probably gay boy) that is a true Brodie (not an adult wacko) is not a threat to women or society (not sure about the wacko adults that masturbate to it though). I doubt he is going to grow up and abuse women and if he is a straight man, having a sensitive side towards things feminine will make him a better husband and father. He probably won't grow up being a macho asshole, which I think is a major plus. Less macho idiots means a better planet.

I watched superhero cartoons as a little girl, which is considered so-called boy's TV. Oh, gee it must have made me a lesbian. That is how much sense it makes putting the kid Brodies in with the adult perverts. The adult sexual perverts are not Brodies, they were NEVER Brodies, they are just perverts that have nothing to do with the show, except masturbating apparently to it. So why do you still refer to them as Brodies?

Heath Russell said...

Because it is the "No TRUE Scotsman" argument. The men who jack off to MLP characters consider themselves bronies, whereas the men who do not jack off to MLP characters call the former group of men "not REAL bronies." (No TRUE scotsman fallacy...is this making sense?)

Cloppers consider themselves bronies, hence why they are included to make my argument.

No, I do not lump boy children in with grown men. They are two distinctly separate categories of people.

Like on one hand you are defending "future gay men" (while ignoring the little boys who like MLP who grow up to be het men) while at the same time making the argument that if you liked superhero shows as a kid then that makes you a lesbian.

Your counterargument seems to contain some veiled lesbophobia. Because I liked superhero shows as a kid too, particularly Wonder Woman, but society gives young girls the message that if they like superhero shows they must be boys, when in fact they often are lesbians (and some become het). While at the same time little boys get the message that if they like MLP, they are "future gay men" or worse, they're actually women.

You're still barking up the wrong tree, here.

Heath Russell said...

So, no, I am not talking about children here. I am talking about grown men. By all means you can continue trolling, but you're the one who is deliberately missing the bigger picture of my argument, and you are doing it so badly that it's actually quite humorous.

Sappho Winchester said...

I think you are missing the true augment. Stop judging the little boys that like Brodies. They are not the issue here. If you are referring adult perverts as Brodies, you are lumpy innocent kids that started the whole boy fan base for the show in with the adults that are perverts. Stop saying these perverts are Brodies, call them what they are pathetic pervs. Because they are not Brodies, the little boys that love the show and buy the toys and other products are Brodies. The freaks that masturbate to the show are perverts, not fans of the show. I bet most don't even know the storyline of the show because they are too busy doing their "thing". I doubt the show's producers would be wanting them (the perverts) or you to call these perverts Brodies either.

And since I am a lesbian I am not lesbianphobic.I believe a person is born gay (or straight, bisexual, pansexual...) But the form of feminism you believe in has always had major issues with lesbians (especially butches and femmes). Deep lesbianphobia was the thing back then. Back in the 70s and some of the 80s the feminists movement was embarrassed by lesbians but especially femme lesbians , which they viewed as trying to be too stereotypically feminine and butch lesbians that were seen as wanting to be the enemy, men. It was a time that was not so gracious to lesbianism as a whole in the feminist movement. Many lesbians like myself went into liberal feminism over time and the humanistic movement (wanting rights for everyone and less war). Some sadly, give up on feminism completely.

Out of all the issues that face the world perverts masturbating to fake ponies is really not that important. Planes full of innocent people being blown out of the sky because of stupid human conflict should at least make the top ten worries on every person's mind. Empathy is a lost art, sadly.

Oh, calling me a troll for debating you is kind of strange. Debate is always good and I have not personally attacked you, though you have me.

Cammy said...

Sappho Winchester: Many of those bronies who start off as little boys do grow up into perverts as adults, so these groups are not mutually exclusive like you believe. There IS something wrong with teenagers and adults who enjoy things for small children. Even perverts start off as someone's "precious little miracles" and they are NOTORIOUS on forums like reddit, 4chan, and dating sites like okcupid. You also have no point in your "little boys liking girls things" argument because little boys are still socialized into masculinity in spite of that, hence the amount of pervert bronies. All you prove is that once again females cannot have anything for themselves without males coming in to invade and co-opt the complaints as a form of "homophobia" even though they tend to be straight. Don't be vague by saying "people" harassed the kid who committed suicide, be honest and name the problem: it was other males who did.

Phalexis Taibooredini said...

Anonymous #3: From what I can tell, Heath doesn't favour transition for children who like "opposite gender" dress and/or activities. She's detransitioned and is trans-critical.

Anonymous #2 and #3 and Sappho: It's a really cheap shot to argue that Heath doesn't care about that poor 11-year-old boy because she wrote that she opposes the phenomenon of "Bronies", who are adult males who are fans of the show. (The term was coined to describe the adult male fans of the show; it was not initially used to describe children who watched the show.) It's infuriating that the kids at school teased this boy just because he liked a "girly" show, and I feel terrible for him - nobody should be put through that. But you also shouldn't be using his horrible experience to try to make Heath seem like an uncaring, gender-strict person for writing a brief critical analysis of [adult male] "Bronies".

Furthermore, Heath never said that the show is "for girls". She said that the show is "a story about multiple female ponies", it's "an important show for young girls", it has "a primarily female-led cast" and it "shows little female ponies going on all kinds of really big adventures". I think that most of us can agree - girls are expected to like or tolerate media even if it features all boys, and women are expected to like or tolerate media even if it features all men, so why can't boys like media that features girls, and men like media that features women (outside of pornography and pseudo-pornography)? It's so hurtful that we're all socialised to believe that boys and men are "normal" and girls and women form a special interest group with handbags, make-up, fashion and other "girly" things - all things which boys and men, if they're "regular" boys and men and not "queers", of course, are taught that they should stay away from. And as I mentioned above, this gender-strict, male-loving and female-hating approach to media is not one that Heath is endorsing here - she said that the show is about females, but she didn't say that it's "for girls".

Sappho: When Heath wrote about "Bronies", she was talking about, well, "Bronies", as per the intention and common understanding of the term. She was talking about adult males who have formed their own subculture based around men drawing different forms of entertainment from a cartoon about young female ponies. And I completely agree with her that this phenomenon is creepy and stinks of a sexual fetish, whether these men actually get to the point of masturbating to the show or not (or whether or not they're "out" about the fact that that's what they're doing).

Seeing as you're a fan of debate, I think that it would be a display of integrity on your part to respond to what Heath has actually written, rather than try to change the topic to something that you find easier to argue about. Do you have an opinion on adult males who are fanatical about a cartoon about young female ponies, and who try to distance themselves from the members of their subculture who are open about masturbating to the cartoon?

Sappho Winchester said...

My mother still loves cartoons and she is way into her adulthood. Are you saying adults cannot love kids’ stuff anymore after a certain age? I personally I still love Bugs Bunny and Kermit the Frog, though both are not my type sexually.

1. they are cartoon characters, hello!

2. They are animal characters (a bunny and a frog) for god-sakes WTF? (not into bestiality).

3.how would you take them home to mother "Hi, mom this is Kermit/Bugs we are in love". Really, still WTF? Good way to be deemed insane.

4. I like real human women (you know Homo Sapiens that breathe air and came out of a human womb not made in someone's imagination) not animations. I thought I would put that in legal writing, I do not want you starting a rumor on me and Kermit, Miss Piggy will beat the shit out of me. :P

Seriously, though, I can tell you not everyone wants to make mad passionate masturbation to animal cartoons, some of us live in a place called reality. Some people like stuff that reminds them of their childhoods or gives them something that is not full of violence to watch and of course there are those that are going to make something nasty and perverted of it and turn it into a freak fest (you are helping them out by calling them the "main fans" of this show).

Perverts are going to be perverts and to tell normal people that they cannot be fans of a TV show because there are perverts out there doing the nasty, is allowing the perverts to win. People would have to stop watching or reading everything, because there are perverted fans following most things (some are more visible than others). Look up some fan fiction on any TV show (some are good and some are completely sick). Look up Wincest, that fan fiction makes me want to vomit. But I know that the show is not written that way so I can still enjoy Supernatural (because I know the brothers wouldn't be fucking each other). That reminds me I do need to write a blog about these minority incest fans that think brothers humping each other is cool. Its gross, people.

And to those that commented, my views on these pony perverts are clear, if you really read my two comments. Not a fan of the perverts. Which, I do not call Brodies, just pony perverts.

Heath Russell said...

I am simply saying why do they need to call themselves "Bronies?" Why can't they call themselves MLP fans? That's what female fans of the show call themselves for crying out loud. Further, why do these "Bronies" need an entire online club/culture in order to feel secure in their appreciation of the show? Why do they need to take endless selfies of them in their MLP adorned fedoras/shirts/etc holding MLP stuffed animals? (Again, remember, these are grown men). And remember, again, that more often than not, these men are NOT gay, they are straight, and they prowl The Red Pill subsection of Reddit and consider themselves MRA "nice guys."

Just go look at the facebook page "Friend Zoned Again" and you will see all of the dude-bro misogynistic garbage alongside MLP fandom stuff from GROWN-ASS-STRAIGHT-DUDES.

Last I checked, adult females didn't need selfies of themselves in MLP shirts, holding MLP plushies. Men are really big on fetishizing and sexualizing little girls and their perceived "culture of little girls" and they have for centuries, so that's probably why.

Yes, because men sexualize little girls, you'd be naive to think I wouldn't be leery of them.

Heath Russell said...

I am going to sincerely hope that your counter-argument isn't predictable. Please, dear goddess, please let her argument NOT be predictable. Please please please please. >_<

Thistle said...

All I can say is "wow" -- thank you for giving me more articulate fodder for fueling my feminist fire, Heath! I don't have the patience you do, to tease it all out this much, but what you wrote in the original essay you put out there, and then in all of the comments, is really informational and important for me in my journey to explain why I have a gender-critical view and how that does not make me a hateful, bigot, but rather it makes me a woman standing up to male bullshit.Keep bringin' it on!

Sappho Winchester said...

Another question Heath. Why do you hate transgender people, even though you once identified as a transgender man? I do not understand this deep hatred. Though, I know you de-transitioned but you should not hate others so deeply, your anger towards transgender women and men is almost frightening. I personally do not want to feel that much hatred towards anyone, I prefer compassion, kindness, and empathy. Oh, and you do not have to agree with everyone on everything to still show human care to them.

Also, this whole thing about political lesbianism in the radical feminists ideology, the belief that lesbianism is not a set sexual orientation and that one chooses to be homosexual, so anyone can be a lesbian, helps the religious rights argument that if you choose to be gay, you can choose to be straight. This is very harmful to young lesbians and gays that parents are trying to convert with what is called gay conversion therapy. If you belief this is no big deal, here is a good video talking about it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAhb4mQ6Pj0

Heath Russell said...

I do not hate transgender people. Please find another blog to prowl, I'm getting tired of your incessant badgering.

Anonymous said...

I do like this post and I am laughing at all the comments defending Bronies. First of all, that boy they’re talking about is what, 11? Since when does an 11 year old boy count as a grown man? Also, I would bet that a majority of the people bullying him for liking MLP in the first place were other dudes.

I’m tired of Bronies getting a free pass for their shitty, misogynistic behavior because they are soooooo gender-nonconforming for liking a show aimed for little girls. Well, all I can say is that even though MLP features well-written female characters the dudes watching that show don’t seem to take anything away from it because if I had a nickel for every MRA-esque comment I saw from a dude with a pony icon, I would be a fucking millionaire by now. But yeah, I guess that because these dudes like a show for little girls (and throw fits over this show not catering to them, even though there’s few shows that cater to little girls and a ton of shows and movies catering to grown men) it means that they are super progressive, enough to get documentaries praising, even though most are misogynistic as hell. You know what happens when women and girls like a show or other piece of media where we are not the target audience, like for example almost any video game (even though we make up around 42% of the gamers) or a show like Dragon Ball Z. Or if could even be a show like Free! where we actually are the target audience?
Well what happens is that we aren’t praised for our gender-nonconforming behavior. In fact, we are all “fake geek girls” who must be faking our interests in video games or anime (even if we are the target audience of the anime) for some insidious ulterior motive. And that ulterior motive is to apparently prey on nerd boys with a raging Nice Guy ™ mentality. In other words, these men think that women will spend ridiculous amounts of time and money in the fandom of a show or video game she doesn’t like to impress some man-children and meanwhile said man-children still believe the friendzone exists. (Also, in case you didn’t know, Free! and the women who watch it have ruined anime forever, according to man-children.)
I haven’t had too much trouble with going to conventions but some of my friends have and I have had to threaten to open a can of whoop-ass. I am definitely not interested in these dudes because I’m a lesbian and I could still do better even if I was straight.

Anyway, my answer to your question is nerd/geek/fandom sub-culture will often have a raging case of Not All Men Are Like That. Or just have a bunch of misogynic dudes.

Angie White said...

So males are not allowed to like anything female, but you have a males name? If the difference between women and men is so huge, why are you dressed like a man, with short hair and a mans name??

Angie White said...

If males can't like anything feminine, why can women like masculine? You are dressed like a man, with short hair and a mans name, but you're on here talking about how shit men are? Are you confused, or just a hypocrite?